Charisma News - Informing believers with news from a Spirit-filled perspective, The Real-Life Miracle That Absolutely Shocked This Atheist-Turned-Evangelist, Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels, Atheist-Turned-Apologist Lee Strobel Offers Clear Evidence for the Supernatural, Atheist-Turned-Apologist: I Would Have Smirked That Easter Falls on April Fools' Day, Click here to subscribe to the Charisma News newsletter. In all of human history there has never been one single credible and fully verified miracle cure. A particular response has now happened twice in an ongoing discussion about extraordinary claims, and I felt I needed to think about it more deeply. So for example, if I just say oh well there was spontaneous remission you could say that's implausible given our medical knowledge but it's going to be very hard to establish that that's actually like impossible, to definitively rule it out and so the question of which is a more plausible explanation and not can you rule it out. As she listened, she said that she heard a male voice coming from the corner of the rooma voice she now believes was God. Lee Strobels Miracles talk (25 minute segment), Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Proximal Intercessory Prayer (STEPP) on Auditory and Visual Impairments in Rural Mozambique, In conversation with Digital Gnosis (Nathan Ormond), Street Epistemology with Eddie (Deep Discussions), Thoughts on the Randal Rauser vs. Did she go back to Congo after her PhD studies? I mean not that it was deliberately anti-supernatural, but it was deliberately non-supernatural. So we're talking about something like hundreds of millions of people. Why don't we just simply believe. Some initial thoughts Time stamp 4:47 James is right that the evidence on a lot of these cases is really really bad. Synder's miraculous healing , which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical . The Mayo Clinic had diagnosed Barbara with multiple sclerosis. If someone gets healed, you often can't get back in contact with that person -- "it almost feels like if a miracle happens you have about 48 hours and then their gone". Facebook gives people the power. record-breaking fundraising, and breakthroughs in research and academic He became a Christian in 1981 shortly after he decided to investigate Jesus and the Christian faith after his wife became a Christian. And, in fact, one doctor described her as being one of the most hopelessly ill patients he'd ever encountered.". University (CWRU) in July 2007, will join the Association of American Universities (AAU) by the into our next chapter, said McRobbie, who is also the president of Indiana This is why causal connections are so hard to establish, because not only do you have to demonstrate a real effect, you have to somehow distinguish possible causes. He became a Christian in 1981 shortly after he decided to investigate Jesus . Likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the potential occurrence of miracles. As James says, "God really needs to up his game.". She is the former president of Case Western Reserve University. And each of us have different tasks. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was "ambivalent" about whether these miracles still happen today. Christians) than other groups. I had been an Atheist before my conversion. We're here at the meetings at the Evangelical Theological Society talking with Dr. Craig Keener. We also can't rule out that he was prayed for many many times in 16 years, and only at this particular time for some other reason he recovered. Further, the authors admit, although they do not disclose the data, that previous attempts to document response to the treatment in other populations have failed. She I think people sitting back and watching kind of don't take into account that this is life-changing stuff that's happening to these people. Barbara spent years paralyzed, but stood up in an instant. Case Western Reserves Board of Trustees The story is that this person had a condition where they couldn't eat normally, were fed with a tube, and this persisted for 16 years. diagnosis by the Mayo Clinic, her condition declined over the next 15 years. I wear glasses. Scott Rae: So how did, how did she become a war refugee? She wanted to be with her family even though there was a war going on. Scott Rae: So tell Give our listeners a story from the U.S. or some other part of the west where you do have medical documentation to back up the account and to backup the interpretation of it that this is genuinely something miraculous. You wont want to miss Scotts interview with Dr. Craig Keener, renowned New Testament scholar, who has done in depth research on miracles today. "So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, 'Go find my parents' [and] jumps out of bed.". Or even the most dramatic story I found from somebody that I or my wife knows, but this one was particularly mind blowing to me because Antoinette Malumbay was my mother-in-law and Terese is my sister-in-law. The fact that there are only two or three of these, that these are the best they have, given all of this time is damning evidence against their case that miracles actually occur at even the 1% level. Each of these is far harder than the rather trivial challenges to testing miracle claims. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. Dr. Craig Keener holds the F.M. and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky. Plus these were not from people who burned child witches or anything like that. So her initial eyesight is 7/200, quite poor. It's not just saying that the evidence provided is lacking, but there is missing evidence that would be expected on the truth of the claim -- making it an argument against the claim. I was talking with Antoinette Malumbay with my wife translating for me 'cause my wife knew the story only second hand herself. Barbara Cummiskey Snyder is on Facebook. And they said, "Macular degeneration doesn't undegenerate." The fact that the best theists can come up with are so readily handled should be a caution to anyone trusting their claims. (Read also:Are the Biblical End Times upon us? Facebook gives people the power to share and makes the world more open and. It's the same reason large careful studies aren't done -- they simply don't care enough, and are already believing, so why bother? I mean these were mainstream Evangelical Christians and anyway, some of the critiques, and actually some of the praises from the Christians showed that they hadn't actually read the book either. We will be fully healed with our resurrection bodies. You can received notifications daily or weekly. At least there is documentation published at https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/. University of Virginia, as well as private ones including Harvard, Yale, MIT, In principle I believed it, but I was questioning witnesses with kind of a skeptical approach to try to whittle away anything that wasn't necessarily accurate. Synder's miraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turnaround. And she'd also gone blind. Synder's miraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turn-around. The analogy doesn't work, and honestly I think this is a miracle talking-point that Elijah is misusing here. What is being missed here is it shouldn't matter what the skeptic says -- the evidence should be strong enough to convince the skeptic. James: Shermer's essential point is how do you distinguish charlatans from real miracles and the answer is well you weigh up the evidence and you look at the best explanation. Adapted from Editorial Theme html5up.net | @ajlkn, Pharmaceutical companies don't complain about these steps, they just do the work. It still could fit James, Chapter Five or gifts of healings for those of us who believe in that. I doubt Keener has tried to actually get this done beyond the anecdotal level. So as you've cataloged these different stories and different accounts, what's been the sort of the breath of the geography that's been involved? And then I said "In Jesus's name, Amen" and so we moved on. And certainly one shouldn't be willing to upend ones knowledge of how the universe works based on one report by one doctor on one patient. The Mayo Clinic had diagnosed Barbara with multiple sclerosis. However studies also show about 80% of ER nurses and 64% of ER doctors believe lunar cycles affect patients' mental health, even though the data do not support such an effect. It is pretty clear that not much can be said confidently. There isn't anything that could tie the prayer as the causal element, given that she was most likely prayed for often an we're picking out the one case before a claimed recovery. She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations, Strobel explained. Synder ended up in hospice care with a no-resuscitation order; she was nearly blind, her hands and body were curled and she had a tube in her throat to help her breath as well as a tube in her stomach to ensure proper nourishment. They want the positive results and the authority that comes from the scientific enterprise, yet they aren't willing to put in the real work to earn that authority. It isn't irrational to demand a higher-than-average standard for extraordinary claims, no matter what. He is the F.M. And sometimes, well it's wonderful when God does it and when he doesn't we still know that we have that hope. So how much evidence really is enough? This time with them pushing her father, disabled father in a wheel barrel and they left a home that they would never see again and ended up basically in the forest, or villages in the forest, abandoned buildings, for the next year and a half. Studies of distant intercessory prayer have been essentially negative we see the typical random scatter of results expected of an ineffective treatment, with no consistent pattern of positive results, and with the best studies being negative. I think no, because theism is vaguely defined. Sean McDowell, Timothy Pickavance, Scott RaeFebruary 27, 2023, Sean McDowell, Scott RaeFebruary 16, 2023, Sean McDowell, Scott RaeFebruary 09, 2023. Scott Rae: Yeah. Thank you for being with us. Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens and a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was ambivalent about whether these miracles still happen today. The deaf will hear. And why aren't there miracle claims of people spontaneously generating electricity? So where there's cutting edge Evangelism, God does more dramatic things. unblinded) studies were better. And remember Think Biblically about everything. But in some places Like I had a student from India, a doctor of ministry student, who said almost everybody that he prays for in India gets healed. Regardless of the contents of the specific studies, this sort of fishing for positive results is thoroughly unscientific and casts significant doubt on any results from this institution. I want to refer our listeners to your two volume series on miracles. I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. That's such a good way to frame that. That is their foretaste of God's future promise to us when there's going to be no more sorrow, there's gonna be no more pain. In my opinion this study represents a larger trend that I have discussed before clinical research going backwards in quality after higher quality studies yield negative results. Synder's miraculous healing , which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical . Honestly, this mistake is primarily due to sloppy reporting -- if you are reporting a set of numbers in a study, especially if you are establishing a timeline of events, you need to make it clear when some numbers are not comparable. This was in 1981 that this happened. But you in the west, you have this wonderful medical technology. I don't think they have established a real effect yet, so it's premature to speak about causes. You should watch Pinecreek's reaction here -- it pretty much sums it up. Keener gives a lot of waffle, and then some video of the woman that is thoroughly unconvincing. She never quotes her doctors about her condition, and provides no documentation whatsoever -- there is simply nothing to work with. and Duane Miller (healed from irrevocably damaged vocal chords). Chris Gunderson who was born with an incurable disorder called Chronic Pseudo Obstruction Syndrome, which was cured by prayer. What really annoys me is when they say "I could show you cases of arms growing back theoretically speaking and you would not believe it" when the best evidence they have barely rises to the level of being interesting, let alone something amazing like this. It's a long story. It is interesting the Elijah seems to understand that we need evidence to believe a claim, that we need to weigh alternative hypotheses, but he seems to have no idea what a controlled study is or why it is necessary. episode: Is there medical evidence for miracles? Finding Miracles in the Moments April 8, 2022 by Barbara Snyder 16 Comments I love to explore the outdoors with my grandkids, especially when our adventures lead us into the woods. He wasn't praying for healing of his physical vision, but when the Lord healed his mind, he opened his eyes and he could see. These responses just seem so, I don't know, juvenile to me like it's like they haven't thought about these issues. What problems are you interested in? So what's your response when you pray, lots of people pray, and a miracle doesn't happen? What is that? "Only 15 percent, according to the polling that I did, believe that miracles cannot happen today," Strobel said. I think we can. Now, Strobel, whose personal story was told through the Pure Flix feature film, book anddocumentarytitled The Case for Christ, has released The Case for Miracles, a new investigative book that relies on facts, interviews, and studies to further explore spiritual matters. It's walked though in a 5-part blog series: We keep coming back to the question about how you would test for miracles. So we interviewed Antoinette Malumbay. God can heal us through exercise or just the things he's placed in our body. They're not replicable but if there's a pattern like nine times out of ten where this happens it's in the context of prayer, that should say something. Somebody we know, actually there were two people we know, who are witnesses of that one. University. All rights reserved. I mean I can explain theologically the already not yet of the Kingdom why it doesn't happen to everybody, but why this one and not that one? Craig Keener: Well if you ask me what motivated me to write a 1000 page book on miracles I could say nothing because I wasn't planning to do it initially, but it was certainly one of the most enjoyable projects I've worked on. A bit of Bible, A bit of Life, A bit of Politics, Barbara Snyders healing from MS shockeddoctors, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2023/02/98-miraculous-healing-of-3-month-old-baby.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/forgiving-to-forget-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/13mysteryguard.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/dreams-and-visions-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/meekinheritanceworking-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/bringing-the-pain-in-prayer-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/whychristmasfellondec25.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/wjinterview.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/spiritual-warfare-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/kate-fisherinterview.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/podcast-5-what-really-sunk-peter-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/4-edited-you-are-not-a-mistakeaud.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/3authorityopentheword.mp3. We are interested in the truth and are aware of many other factors (e.g. She worked as a teacher's aide for Headstart and was a member of St. Mary's Church in Elmira, NY. "So, we know that at least 450 Christians began praying for her, because they wrote letters saying, 'We're praying for you.'". Barbara R. Snyderis president of the Association of American Universities. It doesn't mean to stop praying for healing. Craig Keener: In Christian circles it's been received really, really well. ), but with the best they ever give us (like the cases above), the second you dig a little bit you find that all the evidence kind of vaporizes or there are plausible alternative explanations that take only a minute to come up with. They're meant to be signs of the Kingdom. On this episode, she lays out the case for investing more in academic research, and what we may lose if we don't. Subscribe to Big Brains on Apple Podcasts , Stitcher and Spotify. The situation was pretty hopelessuntil something quite shocking happened. In Once you admit that getting a pool table after prayer is a miracle, then you've admitted that your standards of evidence are outrageously poor. Here is her story. Half received prayer; the other half didnt. He is the author of 24 books and there's a couple of books that I want to talk to you about today, Craig. God can heal us through medicine. Craig serves with me on the Board of Evangelical Theological Society. You just wonder how legitimate are these miracle claims in the 21st century? Strobel said. It's not the fullness. We make a mistake in the episode here about corrected vs uncorrected vision measurements. Can we come to any agreement here? Some were tested in persecution. Certainly months in the case of severe atrophy over the course of years. National Colloquium on Library Special CollectionsPresident's RemarksBarbara Snyder, President, Case Western Reserve University10/22/2014President's remarksC. She was miraculously healed. Her blindness, too, had been instantaneously healed. Ad by The Penny Hoarder What companies will send people money when they're asked nicely? I don't believe Barbara Snyder was cured by the intervention of some agent outside the natural world. Never miss a big news story again. If the Anchor.fm widget isnt showing up above, click here to listen. How can I help? And so he's already saying in his ministry the Kingdom is being expressed. And when you dig in and you start interviewing some of the people and looking at some of the medical documentation, we're not talking about a little bit of evidence. Syndersmiraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turn-around. However, after analyzing several miracles Strobel is convinced they are. Here's my comment. There is a second video interview with the woman herself that reports completely different medical history, and differs substantially from the details Keener gives. My initial thought was that , A physics problem from a practice AP test came to my attention, when my daughter was in AP physics this past spring. Whining that it's hard is just lame. an 18-year-old female lost the majority of her central vision over the course of three months in 1959 and was later diagnosed with juvenile macular degeneration (JMD). And he said because these precious people that never had a chance to be exposed to God's extravagant love, He works in extravagant ways to let them know. If miracles are real then these steps -- while possibly inconvenient -- would be easy to demonstrate. Each of those people are in the same position as the boy Elijah speaks about and will certainly attribute a God-given miracle to their healing. She earned her bachelors degree from OSU. The response is, essentially, that I am demanding too much evidence. She's on her deathbed," Strobel explained. Sometimes there really isn't enough available evidence to substantiate a claim. Just, was it last night I think, we were talking and David Dockery was sharing about Grant Osbourne, a scholar friend of ours who passed away just this past month after an amazing career of scholarship, but when he was young he had asthma. It would seem that these people are constantly dealing with skeptics, and the easiest way to address it would be to get the pre- and post- medical test data rather than a summary by one doctor, after the fact. It's not enough to show an effect that's really rare, maybe that's your first motivation, like "oh wow, this is a weird case. We see this with homeopathy, where well-controlled studies are negative and then dismissed because treatments were not individualized. The latest breaking Christian news you need to know about as soon as it happens. It is quite clear that once you allow one miraculous healing in, using evidence of just one person, then one has to let in a whole host of others. Barbara Snyder's healing from MS shocked doctors. So I guess, what surprised you the most as a result of your study from when you set out to do this to when you got to the end? The statements about being brain dead are all unsubstantiated -- there was oxygen both from the chest compressions and when he was hooked up to machinery. Certainly months in the west, you have this wonderful Medical technology doubt Keener tried. Or gifts of barbara snyder miracle for those of us who believe in that video! Or just the things he 's placed in our body mean to stop praying healing. The Latest breaking Christian news you need to know about as soon as it happens the Latest breaking Christian you. Ill patients he 'd ever encountered. `` was deliberately non-supernatural the rather challenges... 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